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 A gene question for all the breeding experts here...

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poodles&bichonsrulemy
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PostSubject: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/15/2009, 8:25 pm

I see comments on ads and websites saying that this dog 'carries the merle gene' or 'carries the parti gene ' or carries this or that gene. How do they know what gene a dog carries?
Is it from the litters the dog produced, from the known parents coloring, from the parents' litters or from the known lineage past the parents?
Just something that tweaked my interest and I'm not sure how to research this...
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/16/2009, 12:51 pm

My frenchie carries the Parti gene and you can tell because her skin under her fur is spotted. You could also tell by off spring they produce or if one of the parts had the gene.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/17/2009, 7:36 pm

Ok, thanks darlene! I was wondering how this is decided. Is your frenchie the solid white/tan one in your avatar?
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/18/2009, 3:48 am

Yes she is Fawn and white. It is hard to see in the pictures but if you look at her in person her skin under her fur is black and white in places.

My vet told me that color is the hardest thing to predeict when breeding because there are so many genetic factors which come into play. Not only what you see in the current but there are genetic traits acquired or passed down through the generations.

The mother of my pups was the fawn girl in my picture and the daddy was the Black Mask reddish looking guy also in the picture. They had two girls who look exactly like the black(brindle) dog in the picture all the way down to her white markings. That black (brindle) female is a full sister to the Fawn girl.

So you can see in this example just how wacky color and genetics are!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/18/2009, 10:33 am

Yes, that's why I was curious how breeders could predict the 'parti gene' or 'merle gene', because I thought that color was so complicated!
My apricot 'toy' poodle, Cassie, is from an all black miniature poodle dam and a white/cream miniature poodle sire. All her litter-mates were apricot! Cassie has some white on her chest. She is two and I am just dying to see what her babies will look like! scratch
My bichon/poodle sire has pure white fur/hair, and pure black nose and lips. He has patchy black spots on his skin though, so you've got me wondering about him...
All this just makes the breeding and the anticipation so much fun! bounce
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/18/2009, 10:54 am

Well in the case of merle and regarding some colors, saying they carry for it is false. Merle is not recessive by nature and is a dominate gene and is expressed with only a single copy so there is no "carrying" to it. At least in the Corgi colors and regarding Cardigans and probably most of the basic colors the other breeds come in like the Cardigan. Such on a basic black and tan dog, merle is not "carried" without actually being expressed. The dog is either merle or he is not.

There are recessive gene's such as chocolate in labradors or even black headed tri in Corgi's.

In my breed, a black headed tri dog carries no other color combo's in his genetic code. Two black heads cannot produce anything but black headed puppies. But black head is masked (recessed) by the other two acceptable colors when mated to a dog that is one of those colors. I will be having a litter of pups planned for Feb. that will be guarantee'd carriers of black headed tri regardless of what color they actually come out because the mom is a black headed. The sire's colors will mask the black head mom gives her pups. Those pups bred to others who carry the black headed tri gene have the possiblity of producing black headed tri puppies.

Kind of hard to explain, it makes perfect sense once you get the idea but hard to initially explain. I have major interest in that particular litter already as red puppies guarantee'd to carry black headed tri are a very hot commodity in Pembrokes right now and these pups will also be AKC CH sired. The sire honestly compliments the dam but the color combo is just a very nice added bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/18/2009, 11:12 am

Yes, thanks Wind! I see that if you know your breed's color history, then some breeders can predict the 'carrying' of a gene color trait. Just like the Biewers coats can be predicted by the parent combination going back three generations. I find this all very interesting! I don't know about the poodle breed's color history, but now I will have to research it, just for fun and knowledge. I suspect that there are too many colors in poodles to predict their coats, but I will look into it. I do know that AKC does not recognize Partis as acceptable, but my dogs are pets, not for show...
Cassie has me so excited! I don't think they tied during her heat last month, so she is going to make me wait several more months! I can't stand it! bounce
Thanks Darlene and Wind for sharing your knowledge. Very Happy
I am excited with you for your next litter, Wind bounce
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/19/2009, 5:21 am

If there are babies expect them within the month not Months!!!

63 days from ovulation is the Gestation period.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/19/2009, 5:19 pm

I said I didn't think she tied, so she was going to make me wait several more months, as in her next heat/breeding, to see her babies. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/20/2009, 5:26 am

Sorry!!! My mistake!!!
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/20/2009, 3:47 pm

No problem. Sometimes I 'm just not clear, I get ahead in my thoughts and my typing doesn't keep up! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/22/2009, 7:57 pm

OK, so for all those interested, I found this great webpage on Dog Coat Color Genetics. It was very informative! They even mentioned how a black poodle can have an apricot puppy, just like my Cassie and her black mother! I looked at the specific breed info, poodles. Also, did you know that 'silver' poodles are actually 'born blue' or 'blue' poodles? Enjoy http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/22/2009, 8:05 pm

I have a friend who has poodles and she says blue's can be hard to identify as puppies. Sometimes the only indicator is a few silvery looking hairs around the paws when they are 3 weeks old, they otherwise appear to be black and turning blue later down the road.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/22/2009, 9:33 pm

That's so cool, Wind. Apparently, the 'blue' is the diluted black gene. When they turn silver, it is a different gene that they have rather than the black or the 'blue', but they are 'born blue' and turn silver. Soo interesting.
Check out the dramatic change of the "Sable" poodle under the blue descriptions. This poodle looked almost phantom as a pup, and by 10 months old, had turned completely creme except for the ears!
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/22/2009, 9:38 pm

Blue is the manifestatin of two dilute genes on black and Silver is the manifestatin of the same dilute gene's over chocolate.

A dog can be carrying one dilute gene but will still remain the black or chocolate because it takes two dilute genes to manifest. This is called a recessive gene.

Now that we know that a silver or blue has to carry 2 dilute genes, this means they will be giving every puppy the produce a maximum of 1 dilute gene and if the other parent was not carrying 1 or 2 dilute genes the puppies wont be the manifested dilute color but they will at least be carrying 1 gene that is part of the equation.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/22/2009, 9:41 pm

I used to have Weimarnaers which are a true silver, meaing dilute over chocolate. Blue's exist but are DQ'd from showing.

Now not that I ever personally crossed weims on another breed but when i seen others who did, the resulting puppies usually came out chocolate because the other parent of a different breed did not have a dilute gene to match up withthe weim parents dilute gene.

But those chocolate puppies carried a single copy from their double dilute weimaraner parent.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/22/2009, 11:35 pm

Why are the blue (diluted black) Weimariners not acceptable? Is there just the one type of coat, silver (dilute brown), acceptable in AKC? I mean, that is what you said, but why are they not acceptable if they do exist? Is the 'blue' a new coat color?
Now, I am no expert, but from that Dr's website that I listed, I got:
For poodles, blue refers to the dominate (D) gene and silver refers to the recessive (d) gene. There is also another dominate gene loci in poodles that contributes to the 'fading' of a coat color, the (G) gene.
So, a poodle can be 'born blue' and only remain 'blue' if it has a D/d or D/D gene and no G gene.
A poodle can be 'born blue' and fade to silver if it has a D/d or D/D AND a G.
A poodle can be 'born blue' and fade to silver if it has a d/d and no G.
A poodle can be 'born blue' and fade to silver if it has a d/d and G.
Black are different color genes altogether, dominant K and E. But if a black poodle also carries a G, it will fade to 'silver'. The dominant K and recessive (e) is the 'red' coat in poodles! So crazy....
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/23/2009, 8:14 am

I don't know the exact reason blue is not accepted other than it simply isn't supposed to be there. Most breed clubs feel there was some dishonesty in the breed after the stud books closed causing a color that wasnt there before to suddenly show up. Kind of like how parti poodles aren't accepted. Personally that is a different thing all together because you can breed parti into about any breed by utilizing dogs with alot of irish spotting. Parti is also not accepted in corgi's and I don't breed for them but it doesn't take much flashy on flashy to wind up with a parti corgi. This is why I am careful not to have too many flashy dogs in program.

Irish spotting are gene's that cause little bits of white that you see on otherwise solid colored dogs. Like white toe tips, little white spots or strips on chests. It isn't uncommon for weimaraners to have these markings along with other solid breeds such as Irish Setters, solid colored varieties of Great Dane such as fawn. That is just to name a few.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 1:52 pm

Yes, I guess the Wemariner must have had someone slip another breed in there way back in the beginning of tracking the breed!
Geneticists love doggy DNA, the isolating of genes is easy because of keeping the breed 'pure' and carrying the same isolated genes in certain breeds for many generations. Hopefully, this research will help solve people's diseases in the future by identifying problem genes.
I think all dogs are dogs, and don't mind seeing new varieties by mixing.
In light of all the genetic knowledge about coat color, do you think AKC will change its acceptable standards for particular breeds? For example, the poodle's coat is supposed to be a uniform color. Now that we know about the G gene and greying of coats is not from breed 'contamination' but from a common gene carried by many breeds?
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 2:03 pm

I've mostly figured out Cassie's color genes: e/e, b/b, G/? and probably K/k

She is e/e because she is apricot (red) and had a black mom and creme dad. e/e is the recessive red expression of the E locus. Mom had to be E/e and dad had to be e/e. So, Cassie will never have a black baby unless she breeds with a black dog to possibly get a dominant E passed on.
Cassie's coat has faded significantly, so she is G/g or G/G. If she breeds with another faded poodle, her babies will have a higher chance of fading because both parents will have at least one dominant G to pass on.
Cassie is a b/b because she has a brown nose and foot pads. If she breeds with a brown nose, all babies will have brown noses. Black nose and foot pads is B/b. If Cassie breeds with a black nose, her babies could have either brown or black noses.
Cassie is either a K/K or a K/k . It is impossible to tell the second gene (K or k) because Cassie is a red. All reds could be either, but must have at least one dominant K. I don't know what this means for her breeding, just that the dominant K is necessary to express black and red, but the E locus carries the black or red. I think she is probably a K/k because her dad is a creme (possibly black or red not expressed, or just really faded). I just love this inheritance stuff!

Incidentally, the K page talked about your Weimariners, Wind! Is says that all Weims are meant to be K/K, but if a pup has pale tan legs, it is a K/k and so are both parents.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 2:40 pm

Weims are not supposed to have any other color legs than what is on the rest of the body. They otherwise look like dobermans, basically means it is not 100% purebred if this happens. Not really even worth mentioning since it isn't apart of the purebred lineage as far as I am concerned. I don't raise them anymore anyway.

But that is what I meant earlier about how you simply know what they carry simply by process of elimination and knowing what is dominate or recessive to what.

I was wanting a friend of mines litter to have a tri color pup from a certain cross because by default regardless even if the pup was red head tri, that would mean that mom did not throw her single red gene but actually her bht gene. The sire would have made the puppy an expressed red head tri but the pup would carry moms black headed tri gene. Not many could put the "two together" on this litter but I am a buff on the bloodline on what the dam is from and what she has produced. It gets even more interesting when you personally know the bloodline multiple generations back and what it's potential possibilities are.

The same dominate and recessive principles, also apply to genetic diseases such as vWD. vWD is recessive so that means that each parent has to have AT LEAST a single copy of gene for a puppy to have the potential of inheriting the disease. Doesn't mean any or all the puppies will, it is just a very real possibility. I have in the past, bred a confirmed clear male to a female before I could have her tested simply because I knew dad was lacking a vital role in providing his half of the vWD equation. I knew affected puppies were not possible even if the dam was affected or carrier.
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 3:07 pm

Yes, I like this process of elimination, it's solving a puzzle, and I like puzzles! I think it's great that you can anticipate all your litters and shoot for desired colors and health, Wind. It was fun figuring out Cassie, glad I knew her parents. I am not particularly fond of black or silver poodles, so if I get her a stud in the future, I will definitely go for a non-fading red sire.
I can't wait to see your next litter. bounce
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 3:36 pm

darlene0614 wrote:
Yes she is Fawn and white. It is hard to see in the pictures but if you look at her in person her skin under her fur is black and white in places.

My vet told me that color is the hardest thing to predeict when breeding because there are so many genetic factors which come into play. Not only what you see in the current but there are genetic traits acquired or passed down through the generations.

The mother of my pups was the fawn girl in my picture and the daddy was the Black Mask reddish looking guy also in the picture. They had two girls who look exactly like the black(brindle) dog in the picture all the way down to her white markings. That black (brindle) female is a full sister to the Fawn girl.

So you can see in this example just how wacky color and genetics are!!!!

Hey Darlene, I saw that the black mask is a dominant gene. So did all or just some of the babies from the fawn mom and the black mask dad have a black mask? Dad had it, but Mom didn't, so how many had a mask? I'm dying to know! scratch
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 4:01 pm

NONE of the babies had black mask!!!

Both girls are black and brindle with a white chest, some white on their paws and a blaze on their face.

My vet said it made sense that I got brindles but I am still confused. So much for that theory!!! I had a buyer who wanted one with a black mask and we were hoping for one but no luck.

I will be breeding her again in late spring so we will have to wait and see next time what we get. I am praying for the black and white pied!! It is possible just not probable!!
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PostSubject: Re: A gene question for all the breeding experts here...   11/25/2009, 4:07 pm

I am going to do a repeat breeding too of the litter I just had. This was supposed to be her last litter but she just turned 5 years old so I think I will give it another go. I don't think I got her sufficiently bred and I let too many people in on my waiting list and wound up letting all the puppies go including a drop dead gorgeous female that I SHOULD have kept secret.

Breeding this pair again and this time, ain't nobody going to be on the waiting list except for maybe male puppies. No females will be available until 8 weeks and I have made my decision. I don't think I got her bred in time this time either so she didn't have as many as she had in previous litters. She was healthy, just got bred very late in the cycle, Coalbee was trying his heart out but he had bad aim so we decided to AI after most of the eggs were probably expired. Next time I am going to start AI'ing earlier on and do progesteorne testing.

I think a lucky lady made off with what could have been my first home-bred champion.
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